AAJ: Were there particular parts of the book that leaped out at you or brought back strong memories?
BL: Essentially, I thought he chronicled the Alfred Lion period very well. I knew Alfred for the last two years before he passed away, and he gave me much insight about how the company operated, and how hard it was. You know, they were always a couple of steps ahead of the creditors. Some of the stories, such as how they picked up John Coltrane at a drug store and brought him on the session with Johnny Griffin and Hank Mobley, and so on- those things are all true. But there’s a bigger story to be told, I think, and I’m hopeful that at some point, it becomes an inclusive story, hopefully for our seventieth anniversary, which ain’t too far away. That will bring the history of the label completely up to date.
AAJ: So there’s a lot missing in the book?
BL: Oh, but that’s OK! Cook basically chronicled the whole Lion-Wolff period, which is what needed to be done. But I would like to see at some point that the history is updated, because it has been a continuum. Yet Alfred is still our inspiration, obviously.
AAJ: What do you recall about the time in 1960 when you went to see Lion about a job with Blue Note, but nothing materialized for twenty-something years!
BL: What happened was that I was at Bucknell University in Pennsylvania, and, as would always happen with graduating seniors, you’d be interviewed by the big companies, such as IBM, Xerox, etc. So I went through a few of those, and I thought, ‘This isn’t what I want to do. I want to be in the record business.’ I graduated in 1957, and started to look for a job in the record business. The first label I went to was Blue Note, and I just knocked on the door- I didn’t even call them! I was very na’ve. All I remember was that Alfred Lion was there with a couple of people. He was very polite, and all he said, with his German accent, was ‘Vee don’t hire nobody- it’s just Frank and me.’ And that was that- I was out the door in five minutes! So for me to be running this label after all these years, it’s thrilling. It was always my favorite label. You know, I would buy Blue Note recordings as a kid, without having to hear them first, because the quality was so consistently good.
AAJ: What was it about the quality of these recordings that led you and so many others to feel that they were the best?
BL: Well, this question has been discussed many times. For one thing, Lion always gave a full day of rehearsals, and he always had a concept in mind when he brought the musicians into the studio. They were never just ‘blowing’ sessions as some of the other labels had done. They were all planned. And he always had the best players. And Blue Note was always the company that seemed to find the next new musical voice. For example, I never heard of saxophonist Tina Brooks, but I bought the record and I said, my God, this guy is sort of like Mobley, but he’s different! He’s great! Lion would always come up with that sort of talent. So, the catalogue stands very much on its own. Of course, Prestige did some great records too, by the way. But during the forties and fifties, when I started buying my first LP’s- one of the earliest I bought was the 10 inch LP of Bud Powell. Then I bought Herbie Nichols. I had to live with it for a month before I understood anything he was doing. I was a kid, just getting into this music.
AAJ: So Lion and Wolff had an instinct’
BL: They had a very good instinct, and they always had a good concept of what they wanted in the studio. And the sound quality was always first rate, obviously. And the pressings were always excellent.
AAJ: Speaking of the sound quality, we’re talking here in large part about sound engineer Rudy Van Gelder. I wonder what you see as the special abilities and personal qualities of Rudy that led to such exceptional recordings.
BL: He knew how to ‘mic’ the artists. He said that Alfred told him what he wanted to hear, and Rudy delivered it. It was as much Alfred or a team. We spoke often to Rudy about this, and he said, ‘Alfred knew what he wanted. He wanted that ‘presence’ of the drums, of the horns into the microphone, and he came up with a sound that was very much his own. And it made the recordings so exciting. Alfred was also the one that got the players inspired. I understand that he went to Harlem and other places to pick up the musicians, drive them over to New Jersey, get food and liquor for them. And he created a very friendly and warm atmosphere in the studio- and all the musicians said that as well. But Rudy was very much a stickler for sound. And he would not let anyone touch the board controls. I think he’s still that way, today. And apparently, he did wear white gloves! There were times when he wouldn’t let the musicians touch the piano unless the green light was on, etc! So he was very much a stickler. But he was a very wonderful man. I had dinner with him not long ago.
AAJ: What’s Rudy doing these days?
BL: He’s still recording in that studio in Englewood Cliffs. We (Blue Note) still use him from time to time. These days, it’s difficult because artists have their own choice of studios, while in those days everything was recorded there.
AAJ: Let me ask you one more historical question, and then we’ll bring it up to date. What inspired you to make the groundbreaking decision to bring Dexter Gordon onto the label in the 1980’s?
BL: Well, Dexter was always one of my favorite players. When I was at Columbia Records, I’d never seen him play. I was at John McLaughlin’s wedding reception at the Plaza Hotel, and a friend said, you know, Dexter Gordon is playing in town. I said, ‘My God!’ So we made an excuse to leave the reception, and ran over to this club on 57th Street, and there was Dexter with Woody Shaw, George Cables. He was incredible! So I went back stage and I said I want to sign you to Columbia Records. He replied, ‘CBS?’ ‘ hilarious, in that deep voice. So we signed him. And Dexter and I became very good friends over that time, so when I went over to Blue Note, we signed him on here. And it’s sad, because he never recorded for us, except for Part II of the Round Midnight film.
AAJ: Let’s try to bring us up to date. We know that the hallmark of Blue Note Records is integrity. What has it been in your own life and experience that leads someone like yourself, who is in fact a business person, to put the quality of music equal to or above the financial considerations. What produced that idealism in a CEO such as yourself?
BL: My belief is that if you sign an individual artist, and artist that has their own sound, their own concept, and is doing something important musically, that in the end, you will win. Obviously, we have made commercial records just as Alfred did in his day, with the organ trios, etc. But we try to keep our roster focused on strong individual artists who are moving the music ahead. So well sign a Jason Moran or a Greg Osby. Or we’ll stay with a Joe Lovano for a long time. Or we’ll sign a Gonzalo Rubalcaba from Cuba, or a Patricia Barber. And I think the label has to speak to its time. It is an art form. And as long as we’re making a profit for the company, and we have since we began, basically because of the great catalogue that Alfred built, I’ve never been bothered by the corporate ‘suits’- Oh, you’ve got to drop this artist or that artist because he’s losing money. We have some artists who are losing money for us, but they’re so important because they’re building a catalogue for the future. And that’s what I’m really aiming at. And when we have a Cassandra Wilson who does sell a lot of records, or a Norah Jones, who sells millions of records- Dianne Reeves does very well for us. Medeski, Martin, and Wood sells and makes a profit. Lovano makes a profit. If you keep your eye on costs, and you don’t do crazy things’I’ve seen it happen that when an artist gets hot, a record company pays a fortune for an album. Well, you can’t do that in jazz, unless the artist is selling well enough to justify that. We have a very close relationship with the artists on the label. There are times, for example, when Joe Lovano has wanted to make a more financially ambitious record- like a big band or orchestrated record- he’ll take a smaller advance. We can discuss it, because he knows he can trust me. And that we’re not trying to get in the way of his creative vision.
AAJ: What is the role of the producer in this process?
BL: The producer is usually the one that’s in the studio, making the record, advising the artists on the right takes, and also suggesting songs, tempos, etc. and even conceptual ideas for albums. Less so today, because the jazz artists themselves know what they want to do. I just listened last night to the most extraordinary new Pat Martino record which will be coming out late this summer. This is the best record he’s ever made and it’s so unpredictable for him- he used Gonzalo Rubalcaba, Lewis Nash on drums, Christian McBride on bass, and Joe Lovano on tenor. It’s quite a configuration, and it is just so fresh and exciting. And that was really Pat’s concept.
AAJ: So you really dialogue with the musicians.
BL: Well we do that all the time. And with Lovano, he’s got a new idea every two minutes. So we sit down, and he’s got four or five projects, so I say, ‘Joe, how many projects can we make this year?! Let’s go with the one that makes the most sense.
AAJ: Which engineers are you using these days?
BL: We still use Rudy. James Farber. We use many good engineer-producers.
AAJ: What are your goals for Blue Note Records in the next decade? What would you like our readers- fans, musicians, historians, scholars- to know?
BL: I would like the label to represent the most important artists in jazz. Whether they are older artists or new ones coming up. I want the artists that will push the music ahead. When I’m dead or retired, I’d like people to say, that Lundvall was able to support Alfred Lion’s vision and be true to it. Even though it’s quite different, for example we have many more vocalists than he. I think the label has to represent the culture we’re in today. If we can be representative of the best in jazz, and have the best artists, the ones who really make a difference. We’ll never have them all- of course not. But I’m so proud of the roster that we have now. We’ve just signed Wynton Marsalis. He joined us, he said ‘You’re the only jazz label! And I want to be with you.’ I signed Wynton to Columbia Records. So he’s joined the roster.
AAJ: So it’s about pushing the envelope’
BL: Well, not only that- there’s a tradition in this music also. It’s just that you want to have the most exemplary and influential artists in jazz on your label. And I also want to have the ones who I think are moving the music ahead in a fresh way. You’ve also got to keep the label profitable so that no one tampers with it- that can happen when you’re part of a large corporation. As long as we deliver a good bottom line, which we’ve done every year. That being the case, the company has supported the whole operation. And I’ve been with seven or eight different bosses since I’ve been here! I’ve been very lucky, because they’ve supported the music.
AAJ: I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this interview, but I know that you’re very busy’
BL: The last thing I should say is that I’m really supported by a staff here who are all musicians. Yeah, I’ve got a very musical climate. I’ve got the best general manager in Tom Evered. He’s a total musicologist. He knows everything about classical music and jazz. He graduated from music school, a trombone player and pianist. I’ve got the greatest A&R man in the world here, not for Blue Note as much as the Manhattan label, Arif Mardin. He produced the Norah Jones record, and just completed a wonderful Dianne Reeves record for Blue Note. He’s a man with forty gold and platinum records, Grammies, etc. He works for me! It’s a miracle. It’s a whole team of people, a small team, but there all big fans of jazz. So, when an artist is performing in town, they’re there. Sometimes, the musicians complain that the people at the record companies never show up. But I go all the time, including hearing the new people. So does Michael Cuscuna. He still produces records for us. He just did the Terence Blanchard record for us. And he does all of our re-issue programs, of course.
AAJ: Thank you, Bruce, for a very informative and reflective interview.